Gen II Busa vs. "new" ZX-14R video

[Brakelate]

Regardless of the results, and the comments made by the test riders, the latest version of the Hayabusa is a damn fine bike. ABS is just much needed icing on this big sweet chunk of cake. I wouldn't hesitate to ride either, likely with pricing, dealership experience or the mood of the day being the deal breaker in either direction.

Reminds me of our "Good Ol' Days" , regardless.

phpBB [video]

[SonicVenum]

7 mph is pretty good sized gap, and it proves the ZX-14R isn't wasting its power. Personally, I like the Kawi styling better than the Hayabusa's. The tester's note on seating position also makes me lean toward that bike.

[xbacksideslider]

Where you been?

I've never ridden, or been in, any vehicle that quick. Not even 10 seconds, even though my CBR is supposedly a 10 second machine - not hauling my fat ass.
Seemed like a smoother launch with the Hayabusa, although the final times stated likely were not from the clips shown.
Do you think that there is a point of diminishing returns, in terms of maximum displacement, that this class of bike might reach?

[Brakelate]

Regarding the diminishing returns theory; Yes. But it has to do with chassis, length and weight rather than power. I think I mentioned before in here somewhere that even with all the latest 1k cc machines making as much HP and having much better power to weight ratios, due to their wheelbase (sans aftermarket wheelie bars which would not be applicable in the 'real world' as a daily rider) I think these "big" bikes are already there. Electronic traction / stability (wheelie) control can only do so much.

As witnessed, the Busa on it's one pass wheelies nearly to half track. That rider was good - with that light switch hydraulic clutch on the Busa, he must have REALLY been good at modulating the throttle, or particularly lucky on that one pass (he did not repeat it every time). But, the real joy of these machines is finally, yet somewhat quietly revealed in the end of the final comments; These machines are Monsters at the Drags, but incredibly good "road bikes". Once off the track, they can be, and really are quite big pussycats. Oddly , then their size handicaps become their shining assets. Big, smooth, torque-rich riding with good vibes, feedback, fit and finish, longevity and first and foremost; Bigger guys like us can ride them at a level of comfort never achievable on an cramped RR-RR, R anything. And, quite contrary to popular belief, these bikes can handle! Perhaps not as good as a 600 in the real twisty bits, nor run with a supermoto over Portugese Pass, but what really can? And getting to that remote Pass and back suddenly means doing it in a tremendously relaxed, comfortable manner.

And for those occasional "WOT" pulls -in the appropriate places (one must exercise huge discretion and throttle and self control mind you)- there is nothing like it. Sure the BMW1000 and ZX10-R can pull as hard (if not harder on occasion) but the incredibly relaxed way at which these machines pull to speed is nothing short than mind boggling. Absolute laziness in mechanical terms, as opposed to the high RPM shriek and narrow powerbands of the liter bikes. I swear that Gen II Busa was Nuclear Powered. The faster it went, the harder it pulled, quietly, cleanly and absolutely predictably. Just like rolling on the throttles in a F-16 I would imagine.

Now, all these up and coming 2016's.... the crazy 200+ Hp lightweight machines rolling into the docks as we speak, from Kawasaki, Yamaha and others... who knows. We know they will be strong. Stronger! But, I also know, that if I want a bike I can sit on for more than a 20 minute session without my wrists, knees and back giving out, I only have a very few options... and these two are just about them.

I sure wish you were around (John) on my first "Isabella Frank Ride" experience, when I rode my paper plated Busa up there. It was nuts... blew out one of it's fork seals repeatedly lofting the front wheel and slamming down just in time to brake over the rough, dirty Pass dicing with the boys. It would have been fun to let you take if for a spin around the lake... or a good stretch out in the "oil country" leg of the ride to really stretch it's throttle cables. That was the ONLY year I have ever ridden up there that Sat morning (from the AV) did the full day ride, and then rode home late that night after dinner!!! Likely the last. Much of that was the versatility of the Busa. I never was left behind, not even in the tightest or goatiest of sections. But, then again, the real hero of that ride was Tetge. He was right there beside me the whole time - on his Moto Guzzi LeMans SE 1000. And either that bike is a secret weapon (it is good! I've ridden Tim's a few times. At speed, and through a construction zone flat out) or it demonstrates that Tetge is a true Iron Man. I think it is a good bit of both. We froze, sweated out, and froze again. We still made it home, and all the way back to the final off ramp, I still had enough in me to wave and still crack a big smile as I peeled off the freeway and into my garage.

[Tetge]

I rode the Guzzi on a Frank ride at Isabella, and that was about my last real ride anywhere. I also blew a fork seal, and we did it all in one long day. But, I was never the same physically again, and it was because my body failed that I had to sell the Guzzi. It was sort of cool, riding home in the dark, side by side, lighting up the road on high beam. I had a quartz bulb in the Guzzi that really worked and the Busa had a nice stock headlight, so we actually could see pretty well. Also, the Guzzi was geared nice and tall and any cruising speeds up to 100 were just fine with it, so matching pace with the Busa on the open road was not an issue. As a matter of fact, matching pace with the Busa on Frank's cow trails was no problem either, but, Brakelate was a madman, and everyone was in awe over the way he mixed it up on the Busa.

So it was an epic last ride for me.

In reference to the video of the 14 vs the Busa, I have to say that Kawasaki appears to always be on a mission to put out a bike that out performs the latest Busa. Suzuki, on the other hand, holds back on increasing the performance of the Busa. Everyone knows that you can take a stock Busa out to 1700+ CC's, and, they also know that this is not possible with the 14. But, Suzuki only went to 1340 cc's, and they used mild cams and relaxed performance compared to what they could have done. I clearly heard the 14 coming onto the pipe in the video, but a Busa never does that as it has a very flat feeling power delivery that surprises you when you check the speedo. So, there are different philosophies at work. Brakelate loves Kawasaki's but I am a Suzuki fan boy as I am convinced that Suzuki's handle better by far. As for the numbers that the video cited for the two bikes? Funny, but I only saw the 9.99 and the 10.29 with no time slips. And, it was at Fontana. I personally witnessed Brakelate run 10.30 @ 140 at Famoso when his bike had paper plates and he rode it to the track and back, although he lost the race up to a mildly tuned SVT Cobra driven by a senior citizen. I figure that if they were going to claim such amazing results, they should have verified them.

[Brakelate]

I saw the incredibly different times listed. I believe the times shown on the boards during the run were actual, real time, real world numbers. That fit and made sense.

What was posted as an overlay at the end of the video as "Official Results" were some CRAZY out of this world figures. Likely claimed to be supported by some ridiculous "DA Conversion" mumbo jumbo that skewed the E.T. and Trap Speeds in wild fashion.

That was on the new track, over by the railway obviously. But when we ran there (I ran the ZX12-R) I think all our slips were a tenth or two quicker than the typical LACR times, and about a tenth slower than most runs in the daytime at Famoso.

Even on that amazingly smooth run executed on the Busa *again, remember the BIG handicap for the Busa is it's narrow engagement hydraulic clutch set up, with it's locomotive torque and smooth power delivery the only thing saving it, while the 9, 12, and apparently even the 14R having the nice, smooth and predictable cable actuated clutches, but the typical "small displacement, high rpm top end rush type motors, that in good DA even seem more "pipey" as the very efficient Ram AIr set ups come in to play.

I generally discard most lap times, ET's and such anyway, as both can be significantly tweaked, or impacted simply from any number of "real world" conditions at any given time. Come to think of it, didn't the Busa make all it's passes in the Left lane, and the 14 make them all in the right???? Hell, that alone, as we all know, can give or take a tenth right there alone! Hmmm, now I gotta go back and watch it all again and see if I am correct about that.

[Brakelate]

Nope, both were in the left wheel track of the right lane. But mathematically (?) shaving .97 sec and 14 mph trap speed off the results of the 14 must take some explaining. Hell, that would, in theory have the 14 knocking solidly on the 8 second barrier right out of the box. And from what I know, a 9 second pass is a huge
milestone. At least for a guy like me. But, also, from my own experience, as Tetge has stated from my outing at Famoso on my Busa, their initial low-low 10's at 140 are totally doable. So, I have to think the 14's "board" times were accurate as well. Which still at 9.94 at 144 is no joke.

In the side-by-side video playback, if you can ignore watching the numbers scroll and focus on the action of the front wheel of the bike, clearly the 14 leaves, and never bobbles once, almost as if "strapped". While the Busa (consistent with my experience) was pogo sticking well to half track. That is the balance the tester is speaking of, and the reason all that feedback (always highly amplified in the saddle at real time) allows one to just pin the 14 and stay on it.

[xbacksideslider]

In terms of diminishing returns, I wonder if they have done all they can with (1) raising the countershaft sprocket relative to the wheel center, to reduce the rear wheel's leverage on the chassis, or (2) lowering the engine, moving it forward to increase the leverage of that weight against that of the rear wheel, or (3) smaller diameter rear wheel, or (4) still longer wheelbase.

Those fixes, though, would ruin its handling, reduce it to a machine limited to track use only.

Ran the '86 GSXR 1100 out to Malibu/county line/Mugu Rock and back up old Mulholland with the BTE guys yesterday, yeah that hydraulic clutch is less than a plain old cable and the bike. Mine was the least of the 5 bikes in terms of power - a later model GSXR 1K, a R6, a R1, and a FZR 1K - all had me out motored, AND out tired. Rubber in 18" is a problem for the '86 GSXR; four or five year old Michelins made for some 18" hooped BMW that are on there don't compare with Q3s or the latest Michelin or Pirelli track/street offerings. And, the dang things don't wear out.

[Brakelate]

Yeah, I am sure you barely kept them in sight because of it too!

[Tetge]

Yeah, I am sure you barely kept them in sight because of it too!

He would have kept up on his Norton, as you know. What is more amazing is that they go on such rides and are not arrested. Of course, I have only seen them ride one time, but, they all went down Bouquet Cyn, knees down, at speeds that I could not even fathom As I recall, XBSSlider was out front on some trick 1000RR that day, but, I was so far behind that I really didn't witness any of the action. The CHP has put the fear of God into me, but these guys are fearless.

But, seriously, these days HP and even ultra sticky tires are not a huge concern as traffic and concerns about getting a serious ticket also enter into the equation. So, the concept of diminishing returns is quite valid, although DR-Z's lack the power necessary to go on long rides with bigger sports bikes since the big bikes tend to compress straights even when they are just cruising. I have a video somewhere on youtube of sports bike after sports bike passing me on Solidad Cyn on one ride. By the time I got to Acton, they had been there waiting for stragglers for hours. So, for me, the ideal new bike would weigh less than 350 pounds full of fluids and have at least a 150 mile range when ridden in a sporty manner. In addition it would need to have comfortable seating and a fairly low center of gravity (but good cornering clearance) and a powerful enough engine to allow it to maintain decent speeds without straining unduly or vibrating ones hands to sleep. It would also have to be street legal without having to jump through hoops and, in my case at least, I would want some kind of accessible parts and service network. Of course, no such bike exists and, I am sure, they don't exist since there would be little demand for them. In the past there were some interesting street singles, such as the 500 Honda and the 550 Yamaha, but, they didn't sell well at all.