Big Ride Out This Weekend!

[Thruxton71]

Wow..

Quite a discussion going on here, and I see my name bandied about in parts. Brakelate is right, the view from the back was interesting at times, but for the most part it would have been a boring video, showing miles of empty road, no bikes in sight. One of the most exciting parts, in a bad way, was being stuffed by Norton J on little T in the last descent to the 14. If you watch the vid, you will see me pulling off the the side of the road, quaking in my boots, waving the camera bike by. Not pretty. I subsequently realized that when you show up for a ride where the other riders have nick names like 'Norton J***' and 'M*** the Bike,' not to mention 'Brakelate' you are inviting yourself to a gun fight with a squirt gun. And a squirt gun that I hadn't sighted in yet. I was longing for my 1970 Daytona Triumph at times, but the little DRZ does have amazing suspension and brakes, so I had fun. But yeah, sometimes I didn't get the pace.. I mean I was running and indicated 90 to 100 (my brother says it is 5mph off) just to keep the mugs in sight on some long straights. I wasn't that hungry, although the breakfast was pretty good. I notice that no one has discussed the really important part of the ride, and that is the food at the breakfast place.. (What was it called?? Jimmy's??).. which was fine. I see that there are other Otto's out in the valley, but this is a good location, right??

Tk

[Tetge]

It is now called Jack's, and it may turn out to be OK once it can serve beer and wine.

[Brakelate]

I always like the food - and the shade on the patio, when there is some I can find.

Regardless of the name, it has always been pretty good in my book.

Then again, any man after surviving running the gauntlet of death ride over there, makes any quality of Bisquits and Gravy seem like a Royal Feast fit for the finest surviving Gladiator to be carried from the floor of the Roman Collosseum. There seems to be some real similarities there, in risk, if not reward or reputation.

We should have swapped DRZ's, White-for-Black for a segment to get your feedback and thoughts on how different the two identical (theoretically) bikes can be so wildly different in feel, power delivery, tire feedback, comfort, speed, etc. I can confidently say that I was on the slowest bike present that day, as Tetge's old "Blackie" with it's shorter gearing, dual pipes and proper / ideal jetting always pulls my bike at the upper RPM ranges with significant authority. Forget the Triumph, KTM's and Big Bore fully modded DRZ E/SM/S blend that Mike has assembled.

Now, as to who was the fastest rider of the day? Who is to say. Any one of us would be a fool to make that claim, as we all shine, and have shined in our own certain spots, on certain days, in certain moods and when properly motivated. To quote an old (Kansas - Carry on Wayward Son" ) song, the line comes to mine; "For if I claim to be a wise man, it surely proves that I don't know". I like to hang back and cruise with Tim very often and just ride the smooth open lines and fat comfortable apexes at "The Pace". It is very tranquil and calming. Even spiritual in a way, the bonding of man and the machine, it's tone, vibes and rolling motion through a static display of wonderful scenery. But, today was NOT that day. I had limited time, and I had to at least TRY to hang with the KTM boys bullying through the pack.

[Tetge]

My DR-Z has stock gears, and they are spot on. It was you that for some reason decided that -1 tooth on your rear sprocket was a hot idea. But, with equal weight riders both of our DR-Z's would run very close to the same since you added a pipe to yours. But, Mike's DR-Z is certainly a big step up from stock. However, I can't say that It has anything for KTM's or Triumph triples since cubes is cubes. But, for a lot of the ride, HP was not the determining factor as lack of fear of enforcement and maintaining speed, including speed on straights, where anyone can go fast, were the apparent order of the day. I confess to giving up on staying on the leaders on a number of straights, although the 690 was willing, as I see no rewards for running 100+ on straight sections, or even on semi long straights between corners in the canyons. I have been on prior rides with sports bikes and others when they all went fast on the straights, so I realize that this is standard fare on some rides, but, I don't see it as worth the risk of a radar ticket. At least now, after years on a DR-Z that was helpless when it came to high speeds, I can hang in, if I choose to, up to about 115 mph, but, even then, it is not my style as 85-90 is more than fast enough for me, on the street. But, still, knowing that the bike is able to accelerate hard to 100+ is still a nice feature. As I said, cubes is cubes, even if they are cubic centimeters, and enough of them, combined with relatively low curb weight equals pretty good performance across the road. But, mainly these days, I stay close to the speed limit, as it seems that there is more and more enforcement out there with the sole purpose of sending a message to the sporting motorcycle community.

Times are changing. But still, I can't help thinking that maybe I should have got the 1290R that was sitting next to the 690. I mean, what if Norton John brings his 1000RR? A 1290R would be a worthy choice versus almost anything, if reports are to be considered, and it is loaded with electronic aids and all ride reports say that the engine is an absolute monster as far as power goes. The 690 was feeling a bit underpowered. What if Brakelate gets that Ducati and comes back for a visit? When the performance escalation begins, where does it end? But, then I remind myself of how easy it is to push that 690 around the garage and, in fact, using all the power on the weekend rides was really never necessary.

I am glad that I had this discussion, and, I am OK now........

[xbacksideslider]

We should go the other way - 250s.
No need for big Ducks or big Dukes.
I'm going too fast when the CBR1000RR is just starting to go fast.

I want to go fast slower.

That's why I bought the KTM 525, which is actually a 500, only to discover that it's faster than the Norton. Going fast on it is faster. Not good.

Oh, don't listen to Tetge's self deprecations

[Tetge]

I had a 125 Suzuki Stinger twin that I actually rode in Griffith Park and it was a lot of fun. Some years later I had a 125 Yamaha reed valve twin that was able to pack me and my wife on the freeway. It was very strong for a 125as dyno tests at the time showed it making 13.75 HP at the rear wheel. I liked to do burnouts on the slick concrete of gas stations with it. Of course both machines were two strokes, but modern four stroke 250's would be over kill although I suppose 125's are not freeway legal, so perhaps a 250 is as small as one can go in LA where having a freeway capable machine counts. But, 250 Ninjas, which would be the primary choice of weapon if we limited to 250's, are still relatively quick little things, with performance similar to the DR-Z's, so they would not slow a person sufficiently on the Mike breakfast ride to avoid tickets. And, the 250 Ninja's are also tiny, and they really are not suited to larger riders.

Still, I like the idea of limiting everyone but me to 250's. I will keep the 690 to partly even things up, as I might have a chance of keeping up with everyone else on a 250. Videos don't lie.

[Brakelate]

It all comes down to that age old saying that is so simple, yet so true; It is always more rewarding to ride a slow bike fast, than it is riding a fast bike slowly.


Any top end pulls across Lake Elizabeth area were just to confirm my machine could still hit it's max ballpark speed, and well, to be honest, it is a little fun making up time when others lift after the straights, and although I can only hit 80, I clinch my teeth and keep it pinned, running it WOT through everything, curves, rises, bad pavement, whatever. And you know what. Eventually, those fast guys with huge top end advantages HAVE to lift. It is as simple as that. You eventually run out of real estate, gusto or desire once you find yourself riding along all alone. The Hayabusa Phenomenon, I would call it.

That, and I really wanted to see exactly how hard, and how long legged both of those KTMs were by comparison.

And I founds some interesting things; My bike now has a pretty severe weave at anything above 80. It used to be higher, and it would slowly begin an oscillation that was easily controlled or eliminated by a mere nudge on the bars, or by notching the throttle back by even 5 mph. I knew initially it was due to the very triangulated profile of the contact patch that really simulated a "V" to maximize contact surface while heeled over at max lean angles, leaving a narrow center section to "balance" on when running flat and vertical. But, it was much worse this time. Not sure if I should attribute it to the tire, or the addition of the rear top box. Those have been known to introduce high speed wobbles on other machines, even recently with modern suspension, tires and chassis dynamics. For example, the early Honda ST1300's would go into a VERY severe high speed weave that actually was found to be the fault of a crash that killed one of Honda's top bike testers. It gave the machine a very horrible reputation and sales immediately suffered. They then removed the big top box and found that the bike was stable to max -aerodynamic dictated- top speed. They like to run big top boxes on the Euro machines for some reason, while US bound bikes run only a small single saddle Tail Hump, that covered the modern day, much more compact and lightweight radio internals. Even still, they governed all ST1300s to a artificially low 120 mph.

Tetge is correct, his bike has stock (shorter) gearing, as I went Down one tooth on back for more relaxed, extended high speed cruising, by a very marginal amount. So, his actually does have a gearing "advantage" in terms of acceleration on top of the better pipes, carb bits, etc.

And I agree with Norton John, instead of going Up in CC's, I was surprised that everyone did not go out and jump on either the Duke 390 or RC390 which looks like a mini-moto GP bike. I liked the numbers when I saw it's dry weight and MSRP. But, then I remembered that we are all big guys. A mid-600cc machine is the smallest we can get into, not only for Ergos, but because, anything less, on anything but a extremely tight, very steep downhill run would be easy pickin's for damn near any other machine, regardless of how much speed you maintained or carried through the corners. I am about at the basement in that regard with my DRZ-SM as it is. Unless we all got the little 390s and went to various kart tracks and added a "small bore / big guy" classed session into the rotation between shifter karts, and other Supermotos.

The problem with any canyon that I know of, is that for every downhill segment, there is an equally, if not steeper and longer Uphill section to run. And you want -need- just enough to make going back up at least safe, running with commuter traffic, even if there isn't enough motor to make both segments entertaining.

If the KTM 390 racer had big enough brakes, tires and leg room for me to fit on it in a tuck, if not just sitting upright without my knees around my ears, AND had the upper level suspension components like it's larger siblings, and even could muster the same overall power to weight ratio as the DRZ-SM then I would go for it. It looks serious. But, the other thing that is viewed as a negative, which is actually a hidden advantage on the Supermotos for us large guys, is that despite being sprung for a 130 lb rider, it makes up for it, and actually works out better at keeping the tires in contact with the pavement and in control, is the lanky long travel, soft, yet progressive suspension. That is not something that could be easily duplicated or transferred to a "Mini-Duke, or the smallest RC variant.

And obviously, HP is not king on the streets. Especially BIG Hp on the routes we run as it becomes harder to control and keep from getting away from you on a bike without the electronic safety nets. Now, perhaps a 1290R or something similar, all locked down to street / wet power, traction and ABS modes would be able to go faster, but it sounds to me like a exercise in frustration, constantly pushing and fighting for control with the electronics to use as much of the Hp you have, but without ever having to encounter the "electronic wall", which I am sure would break your concentration, smooth running and feeling of confidence and being in control. Unless that is, until you had so many miles on it, that you learned how to push exactly up to that limit, then never actually trigger a activation of those systems that must surely, at least initially, confuse, irritate and shatter your focus.

Then again. Looking at the pace we ran over Spunky, and my shagged tires, perhaps we are running fast enough, indeed for open, public roads and all the "unknowns" that inherently come along with the package of street running.

[Tetge]

From my long term experience as a street rider, I'd say that the ride pace on Sunday was more than fast enough, which is why the fast guys were shown clearly waiting for me at every pull out and wait point. So, additional HP would not have helped me. But, there is no question that if you light the fire and push it at every opportunity HP ends up ruling due to straights and up hill pulls and head winds. Bicyclists know all about this, as do riders of relatively low powered motorcycles. But, as Brakelate noted, there is satisfaction to be gained when one maximizes the performance of a less powerful motorcycle and manages to more or less hang in. And, of course, there are practical limits to how fast one can, or should go on the street, which means that unless one is made of money, the additional costs of purchasing and maintaining a ultra powerful machine do not make sense.

But, I will confess that there is a certain relaxed comfort in having a better power to weight ratio than a basic commuter car when riding. But quantifying this is also not simple as many factor enter into the final numbers. Things such as the fueled weight of the bike, the weight and girth of the rider, the aerodynamics of the machine (including rider), and HP and displacement (which usually has a close correspondence to the torque), all have to be considered. A small framed flyweight on a faired KTM 390 might well be quite quick, for instance. But a large framed, 250 pound (or more) rider (suited up) on a naked KTM 390 might find it too slow and also too softly suspended. And this is a reason why everyone being on a 250 might not work so well. Now, everyone on a Busa, would be another story.....

But, in any case, other than the straightaway speed artists, and they know who they are, riding the real meat of a ride such as the Sunday ride, rewards riding skills as places such as parts of Little T and the downhill part of Spunky, are not about HP, although there are one or two places where you can accelerate hard going down Spunky if you are really pressing. But, Spunky is not a race course, and pushing to race speeds leaves no room for any evasive maneuvers or stops. And, with blind corners on a tight mountain road, one can never be sure of what they may encounter.

In fact, in addition to the fact that the 690 Duke weighed almost exactly the same as my DR-Z fully fueled, the ABS, combined with high quality tires, was also a major selling point. I did not even consider the fact that it might end up being a little quicker than a DR-Z as I was much more impressed by the promised stopping power that it would deliver. You can trust me on that. I also dropped a tooth on the countershaft sprocket immediately, but, I shortened the gearing so I could ride slower without straining the engine, not to try to get more acceleration. And, you can trust me on that as well. I also dropped the tire pressure 3 pounds under recommended front and back, not to get more traction, but to soften up the ride over bumps and railroad tracks and stuff as the suspension is not adjustable so the old tire pressure trick seemed appropriate. If the performance of the motorcycle was impacted by any of my minor changes, it was purely accidental, as I am not about performance at all. Just about safety and sane, sensible, riding, now and then, to view the countryside from an open vehicle and to take in the fresh air.

[xbacksideslider]

" . . . . . . You can trust me . . . . . I also dropped a tooth on the countershaft sprocket immediately, but, I shortened the gearing so I could ride slower without straining the engine, not to try to get more acceleration. And, you can trust me on that as well. I also dropped the tire pressure 3 pounds under recommended front and back, not to get more traction, but to soften up the ride over bumps and railroad tracks and stuff as the suspension is not adjustable so the old tire pressure trick seemed appropriate. If the performance of the motorcycle was impacted by any of my minor changes, it was purely accidental . . . . . "

Malarkey in bold.

The fastest riding I ever did was downhill on 250s where speed retention was paramount so high cornering speed, and little to no braking was essential. Both wheels slitherin'

A friend in high school had one a 125 Suzuki, don't know if it was a Stinger or not; it was a lay down parallel twin, two down draft carbs and the exhaust out the bottom. Green and chrome, I called it "the grasshopper." Cool bike.

[Tetge]

My Stinger had the engine that you describe and it was green, but, it had twin up pipes. It was a great handling little bike, but, it did not begin to make the HP that the Yamaha 125 made. That Yamaha was a serious little monster of a bike. But the Suzuki was still fun although I can still remember all the old Brit bikes smoking it everywhere due to their massive HP. As I recall, I stepped up to a used 1968 Suzuki 500 Titan (with the hot first year only big carbs and porting), dropped a tooth on the countershaft sprocket, and wailed on all those weak ass Brit bikes, proving once again that cubes is cubes and while it may be fun to ride a little bike to its limits, it also is great fun to have a power advantage. And, this quandary has persisted to this day, although, truth be told, I generally vote for more power, no matter how difficult it is to justify it, as you can work on riding skills and handling, but, you can't coach power.